DL Disputable: The MVP & Cutting Edge Head defeats Masked Superstar & Yokozuna

[The MVP]

I respectfully disagree, I believe that he should recieve main event type push adn he would breathe life to the RAW mainevent. the midcard on SD dosen't particularly need him either as they have Ziggelr, Morrison, R-truth, Matt Hardy, Escobar, McNtyre, adn Rey Mysterio from time to time.

I respectfully disagree (and agree with the very first part) of your respectful disagreeance.

Yes he should receive a main event type push but it's just not as likely to happen on Raw. As I've explained, the roster is crowded. For SD you mention guys like R-Truth & Matt Hardy who aren't particularly doing much. Christian could actually feud with them to make them more relevant again, especially since Matt and Christian have history together. That could be great for both.

Escobar and McIntyre are so far down the card and very new. Christian being high up on the card and helping out that area (as well as it helping out himself) will not affect them/they won't affect him.

Then as you mention... Morrison and Ziggler.. another two guys Christian could feud with before Vince puts him in the main event.

On Raw there's MVP, Mark Henry, Jack Swagger, The Miz, Ted DiBiase, Cody Rhodes, Kofi Kingston, etc. Then there's the guys in the main event who Vince seems to NEVER want to drop down. It's simply too crowded for him to really fit in.

However, on RAW, even if given a micard push (which I still say he dosen't need) He could put on some great feuds with Miz, Legacy, Koffi, he could go against Swagger again and use their history as a backing.

He can easily be moved to Main event in RAW because of his ability, adn his ability to either rally a crowd behind him, or make them hate him with his ability to work a mic, or even change his style in the ring

And why can't he do that on SD? It's easier on SD because it's where Vince could be much more willing to give him that big push and is also a brand that has many talented performers for Christian to feud with yet at the same time not so many to the point where there'd be too many others trying to be pushed, likely slowing down Christian's own push (especially when Vince is unsure about Christian). Putting him somewhere that doesn't have as many distractions with the tons of midcarders or the mainstream programming is what's going to benefit him.

[Masked Superstar]

Originally Posted by The MVP

In this case it wasn't exactly contradicting but this is what I mean:

First, you say that Christian can't go for a World title and Vince has the final say, so in the end it really doesn't matter if the WWE title isn't on lockdown right now, according to your previous statement. According to that, it would take time for him to prove himself to McMahon so what's going on later in the main event is what counts. With SD being a bit empty and in need of a superstar like Christian, that's where Christian will benefit from by being able to rise up the card easily.

From the very beginning I contend that what Christian has going against him is McMahon. (period) I've never implied and would not imply that he has to prove himself to anyone. Both you and your partner suggest that the main event is a title situation - not I, nor my partner. In a superficial way he would rise up on SD. On RAW it would actually have meaning.

Originally Posted by The MVP

Prove himself to Vince. Weird because you practically make my point in the second half of that quote and it is obvious that he doesn't need to prove anything to fans that have watched him because HE WAS ALREADY A MAIN EVENTER. In WWE, Vince feels differently so he needs to prove himself. If Christian shows that he can be the main eventer that Vince wants, then Vince will change his mind about him and make him that main eventer. But Vince doesn't see it yet nor did he see it before he went to TNA. He didn't see him as a main event player and still doesn't.

Vince, as history both in the recent and distant past has proven, won't care one way or the other unless Christian had a Flair or Hogan type following, which just isn't the case.

Originally Posted by The MVP

It's not like he's staying in the SD midcard forever like you're pretty much saying for Raw... "have him win the US title... that one more title might be what he needs to enter the HoF".... And again.. yeah, put him in the midcard where there's another 10 guys trying to be pushed WHILE Christian is the guy that Vince isn't interested in pushing. See how that works out.

What I'm saying is he would be better off in the RAW midcard or upper midcard than he would be in the SD main event. The talent level, attention, and emphasis is on that brand not SD. Again, it's Vince's 'baby'.

Originally Posted by The MVP

A few upper midcard feuds wouldn't be bad for Christian. Then he makes his easy rise on SD to the main event. The brand is in need of someone and if Vince sees that and sees how talented/loved by the fans that Christian really is, he'll commit to giving him the push, especially when it's not directly in the spotlight on Raw... Vince would never give him that shot.

And that's assuming that history will not repeat itself with Vince and his WWE.

Originally Posted by The MVP

.... When that happens, that leaves Jericho on SD for Christian to feud with and obviously a feud with Jericho would be tremendous...

Yes, and regardless as it stands right now, that is speaking of today in the present tense, a feud with Jericho as great as that would be can happen on any program.

Originally Posted by The MVP

Haha... first of all, I didn't demand something either way and he could easily be a top 2 heel or face on SD. CEH wasn't demanding either. It's called giving examples one way or the other. Not like they're the only possible way for Christian to benefit on SD, just a good example shown on one clear side.

Well, when you insist upon what was 'supposed' to happen and back it up with rumor and conjecture and refuse to back down, that's called 'demanding'. You use that as a justification for your statement.

Originally Posted by The MVP

I on the other hand decided to show how both sides are good and overall it means we haven't ruled out anything on either side.

YOU have, but this is supposed to be a team effort. So because I've gone back and forth is because you both come from different angles, it's not contradiction.

Originally Posted by The MVP

Kofi, Swagger, and Miz, he has "a lot" to gain. Last I checked, they were all midcarders/upper midcarders mostly around the same level.

Given the history, again of Vince and how he handles guys like Christian.... it would be far better for Christian to have good solid programs against the guys that are atleast on 'paper' better than the ones on SD. Given that opportunity - according to YOUR line of reasoning, he would be able to move up the ladder and 'prove' himself to Vince. That's not mine. Mine is simply that he is a much better performer than the majority of the SD roster.

Originally Posted by The MVP

Why would you point it out if you're not saying he should win it and earlier said that the US title win would be good for his spot in the HoF?

Simply, again, that between the two midcard titles, the only one he hasn't held is the US Title. AGAIN that's not to say it has any more significance (valuewise) than the IC.

Originally Posted by The MVP

What? You're the one mentioning the US title and how he can't go for the WHC/WWE title because of Vince. I have just worked with what you've given me and said that no, Christian could easily fit into SD's midcard, rise up there easily, SHOW Vince that he can be his next main eventer, and then with SD's main event having more room for Christian to fit in as well, Christian CAN reach the main event and CAN win the WHC.

And you or your partner state that Christian wants to prove himself. Why would he want to go somewhere that, atleast according to your team, he could do it easily (Smackdown)??? Isn't that the cowards way out??? Everybody knows that anything worth getting is worth working for - that is except for the ones that want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Is that what you're saying he meant by that???

RAW would be a bigger challenge and making it there would do what your team calls 'proving himself' to Vince.

On a show like RAW, showcasing himself in front of a live audience would have a bigger impact on someone like Vince.

Bottom line is, and I'll say it again, History has proven how Vince is with his treatment of returning stars/players. The only exceptions have been Hogan and Flair. Christian, as good as he is and as over as he is, is not at that level. That's not a slam in any way, it's just the way it is.

Christian would have more opportunity for classic matches with bigger names and bigger exposure on RAW. On SD the biggest shot he has at a classic match is with Jericho. The other guys just aren't that good, but the guys on the RAW roster are already a step above that.

[Yokozuna]

Christian is easily in the top 5 of talent in the WWE right now, putting him on RAW makes the most sense because it is the most widley distibuted show. His charisma is such that he could bring in new fans. And that is more likely to happen on a show liek RAW, which is more widley distributed than on SD, which is more sparse.

Putting him on SD would be putting constraints on who can see him, also, the RAW mainevent scene is very stale righ tnow. His entrance would shock some more life into it.

[The MVP]

From the very beginning I contend that what Christian has going against him is McMahon. (period) I've never implied and would not imply that he has to prove himself to anyone. Both you and your partner suggest that the main event is a title situation - not I, nor my partner. In a superficial way he would rise up on SD. On RAW it would actually have meaning.

McMahon is against him. Obviously if Christian proves himself to McMahon, Vince will change his mind on him. Vince just doesn't see him as a superstar that will really draw in for him... therefore, he's not going to get a solid push on Raw where it's very crowded and mainstream. On SD, Vince will see better of it for him and give him the chance, especially when SD is in need of a top, over face since Jeff left. Christian shows the talent that he has there and Vince pushes him.

Don't see why it wouldn't have meaning on SD but it would on Raw. He will have some great feuds on SD as he rises up the card... it'll have plenty of meaning.

Vince, as history both in the recent and distant past has proven, won't care one way or the other unless Christian had a Flair or Hogan type following, which just isn't the case.

With the current roster on SD and the talent that Christian really has, if given the chance, Christian will shine and be able to change Vince's mind. And if he's away from the spotlight, Vince will give him that chance.. look at Christian on ECW...

What I'm saying is he would be better off in the RAW midcard or upper midcard than he would be in the SD main event. The talent level, attention, and emphasis is on that brand not SD. Again, it's Vince's 'baby'.

Exactly. SO you say Vince isn't going to give him the push but then say he's going to be able to main event Raw where all the emphasis and spotlight is on. Vince simply won't do that so easily.. you've said it yourself. On SD, Christian fits in well and can get that chance.

And once again, I don't see what you're going at as far as the talent level goes... SD has a bunch of talented superstar and is overall the more talented brand, just not completely under all the spotlight, which is good for Christian's sake with how Vince feels about him. He'll push him on SD like he did for him on ECW because he'll know he needs him and he knows it's not so much of a risk.

And that's assuming that history will not repeat itself with Vince and his WWE.

No idea what you mean by that because it doesn't strenghthen his chance of being pushed on Raw at all. Raw's the crowded show that has a lot of guys with pushes/potential pushes. If anything, THAT's where history will repeat itself.

Yes, and regardless as it stands right now, that is speaking of today in the present tense, a feud with Jericho as great as that would be can happen on any program.

Yes RIGHT NOW. However RIGHT NOW Jericho and Big Show are busy so it wouldn't happen on any brand. Pretty sure you've said this yourself. So LATER, he'll eventually drop the tag titles and will go back to the show he's on... Smackdown. Then Christian and Jericho can have their feud. Before that feud happens, Christian has a bunch of other guys he can feud with on SD, main eventers and/or midcarders.

Well, when you insist upon what was 'supposed' to happen and back it up with rumor and conjecture and refuse to back down, that's called 'demanding'. You use that as a justification for your statement.

Wait, what?

He was saying that Christian was supposed to debut on Smackdown to be revealed as the mystery opponent for Jeff Hardy. Clearly that's not saying he HAS to be a heel right now.

This was disproving your statement that Vince will likely never have faith in Christian to become a main eventer... read back through that whole part in sequence and that's how that part of the argument started. He was proving how if put under the right circumstances Vince WILL give Christian a top role in the company. Christian was supposed to be a heel then but that didn't even have much to do with it then... Christian can be face or heel.

Right now, SD has those right circumstances for Vince to give Christian that chance.

YOU have, but this is supposed to be a team effort. So because I've gone back and forth is because you both come from different angles, it's not contradiction.

No, the last thing was misunderstood as Christian "having to be" a heel. CEH meant something completely different in this argument and you can clearly realize that just from reading through the quotes. Regardless, face and heel are both an option which you have said yourself. It's possible to give specific examples on one side or the other to show how he can really benefit as either on SD.

Given the history, again of Vince and how he handles guys like Christian.... it would be far better for Christian to have good solid programs against the guys that are atleast on 'paper' better than the ones on SD. Given that opportunity - according to YOUR line of reasoning, he would be able to move up the ladder and 'prove' himself to Vince. That's not mine. Mine is simply that he is a much better performer than the majority of the SD roster.

Once again, SD has some very talented performers, even some that are far more talented than any on RAW.

It makes no sense for Vince, even though he doesn't see him as a true main eventer, to put him against the top guys "on paper" that are on Raw where all the mainstream stuff goes on. Vince would have Christian get lost in the shuffle in the Raw midcard scene "given the history of how he handles guys like Christian." Meanwhile on SD, Christian has the easy path to that main event scene where he can go up against some of the top superstars both "on paper" and as far as actual talent goes, producing classic feuds, easily getting Vince's attention by impressing him, and becoming WWE's next main event superstar. It just works out nicely on SD while on Raw you have no idea what would happen because of Vince and the crowdedness/lack of talented superstars not getting pushed that the brand already has.

Simply, again, that between the two midcard titles, the only one he hasn't held is the US Title. AGAIN that's not to say it has any more significance (valuewise) than the IC.

Implying that he hasn't won the US title and using that as a reason why he should go to Raw is saying that he SHOULD win it. You even said "another title wouldn't hurt"... except it would. Him winning the US title wouldn't be good for him at all. It'll just slow him down and likely end up getting him lost in the shuffle on Raw's midcard. His momentum simply wouldn't be capitalized on and he'd be stuck at a level he is better than. Me or CEH haven't mentioned the IC title or said he should win it because all he maybe needs to have is a very few amount of midcard feuds and then he should be in the main event. SD will give him that opportunity and again, winning a midcard title would be bad.

And you or your partner state that Christian wants to prove himself. Why would he want to go somewhere that, atleast according to your team, he could do it easily (Smackdown)??? Isn't that the cowards way out??? Everybody knows that anything worth getting is worth working for - that is except for the ones that want everything handed to them on a silver platter. Is that what you're saying he meant by that???

Why does he need something hard to prove himself? He needs to prove himself by showing the talent he has and the ability to draw in fans, money, etc. in the main event. He needs to prove that he can do it... it doesn't matter how many other guys are beside him/competing with him for that spot... that just lowers his chances and gives him no advantage.

If Vince doesn't see him having that ability then how will he see it on Raw where Christian won't get that chance at all with all the other superstars needing/already having a push? There isn't much chance for him right from the start.

It's just common sense......

Smackdown is more empty and he's a much better fit in there. THAT is where he is going to get his shot and where he'll get pushed easily. Just because that push comes easily for him doesn't mean he wouldn't be showing as much to prove himself to Vince. Vince will still need to see the talent he has and the ability he does actually have of being a main eventer on a main brand. If Vince sees that, you can forget about that possibility of him being lost in the shuffle (especially since it's already much tougher to have that happen on SD where there's not so many superstars being pushed high up on the card). Christian will easily be able to keep his spot once he has done this and THEN he can move to the more crowded, the mainstream brand of Raw eventually. However, there's still those classic feuds and other possibilities of feuds waiting for him while he's on SD.

RAW would be a bigger challenge and making it there would do what your team calls 'proving himself' to Vince.

When it's the mainstream show and as you keep saying "given the history" the chances of anything happening for him aren't as good at all. It's not like it's a free ride on SD either. Sure Vince still has to see his ability to become a main eventer but it's just so much easier for this to happen as shown/explained in so many ways.

On a show like RAW, showcasing himself in front of a live audience would have a bigger impact on someone like Vince.

The only reason it might have a bigger impact on Raw is because that's the A show... but as explained... being on the A show comes with so many other disadvantages that it might not really give Christian the proper chance to really get to that point. Other than that, if you're picking up ratings, making him money, or just doing well in general, etc. it's going to have a huge impact on Vince regardless. Vince just wouldn't give someone he doesn't trust to do that yet a top spot on the mainstream brand against the very top guys "on paper" such as Cena and Triple H, or Orton.

Bottom line is, and I'll say it again, History has proven how Vince is with his treatment of returning stars/players. The only exceptions have been Hogan and Flair. Christian, as good as he is and as over as he is, is not at that level. That's not a slam in any way, it's just the way it is.

Thank you. So the show where he isn't directly in the spotlight, not as much of a risk, and is overall the easier way for Christian to end up getting that main event push he deserves is the much better way for Christian to impress Vince and therefore the better option of a brand for him.

Christian would have more opportunity for classic matches with bigger names and bigger exposure on RAW. On SD the biggest shot he has at a classic match is with Jericho. The other guys just aren't that good, but the guys on the RAW roster are already a step above that.

Classic matches? With Randy Orton? John Cena? ... Yeah right.. that'd be mark talk at it's highest level.

Being against the bigger names and having the bigger exposure...

As far as the bigger exposure goes... I've explained it. Bigger risk for Vince and Vince wouldn't give a top spot on the main show to someone he isn't completely impressed with.

Bigger names is a fair point I suppose (in fact, it's a part of the reason why SD would be better, easier, and more fitting for Christian to fit in at a main event position on the card). But it's not like SD is completely lacking there.

Rey Mysterio is a definite fan favorite. Not as big of a name anymore but a big name regardless.
Batista is loved (and now hated) by many fans and has been booked as one of the top names in WWE.
Edge... he's Edge and always a terrific heel/face when he returns and is always at the top as a big name.
Chris Jericho as you mention.
Undertaker... a legend... huge name, but replaceable, especially with his periods that he leaves for a bit. That's only good for Christian in both ways.
CM Punk has been on his way up.

Smackdown shows some big names as well but with a bit of need for improvement... As long as Christian impresses (which he would, he's Christian), Christian can easily fit in a main event spot there.

[Masked Superstar]

I'm going to summarize:

- Christian has over the course of the last 10 years established himself as a main event wrestler

- Christian is easily (as my partner said) in the top 5 of all of WWE

- Vince has a history of treating returning 'superstars' in a certain "that's what you get" kinda way and refusing to allow them to truly succeed and cash in on either the WHC or WWE title. The exceptions have been Hogan, Flair, and Slaughter. Of course it fit into his plans to do just that with them and so he did what was best for the moment. The remainder of the examples were given 'crap', basically. They were allowed to work a few programs and to stay in the lower and midcards - rarely ever main eventing. Backlund comes to mind as one of those that fit into the category of getting 'crap'. He was arguably the best all around wrestler (and I mean legitimate wrestler), with Kurt Angle coming in a very close second, to ever be in the WWE/F. What he got was a title run that lasted all of about a week (or less) and was squashed by Diesel.

Gone are the days when Vince could introduce a guy from another company who had been in WWE/F before as though they are 'brand new'. Barry Windham comes to mind. He was with Rotunda in a tag team who were very much over. He left, then came back to WWE as 'the Widowmaker' - all painted face and such. Vince was at the announce table and he said and I quote "We don't know much about this Widowmaker....." It wasn't until Vince saw a possibility with JBL that he allowed Windham to come out from under the makeup. He still didn't get anything out of it: title wise. Now Vince can't deny Christians history in TNA and his previous history in WWE. He can however, keep him in a lower status and successfully argue that Christian didn't get the shaft because after all he was the ECW Champ.

By virtue of the fact (apparently) that Christian will be moving off of the ECW brand says that he has 'proven' himself to Vince. Otherwise I'd HAVE to believe that Christian is still serving out his sentence in purgatory (ECW). He's done one heck of a job there and it certainly appears that Vince is going to smile down on him at long last.

The next move should be to RAW.

I'm not implying that he would have classic matches against Super Cena: bah gawd, the fact that there are guys already carrying him the way they do is purely shameful. It takes real talent to carry someone like that and to continue to make him look good. Heel Christian would be a good matchup.

Then there's HHH. Christian would put on an excellent program with HHH. As much politicking as HHH does and with his stroke, he has recently shown (via Sheamus) that he is willing to help someone out. Heel or Face Christian

HBK. HBK has everything that Jericho has (ringskill/talent/mic skill). HBK would be an awesome match to see vs Christian. And to end any disagreement on this: Jericho's big turn came along with a program with HBK. HBK had to endure a lot and sacrifice a lot for that to happen. Face Christian

Orton. For all of his out-of-ring shenanigans it's been said as of the last year that Orton is more of a locker room leader type. Easily the top heel in the company or atleast tied with Jericho. It's really not his fault the booking goes the way it goes when it comes to SuperCena. Face Christian

Then you've got guys like MVP and Mark Henry. Stars on the rise. He doesn't need to beat MVP a program with MVP would be mutually beneficial. I understand that he's involved with MH and they're a 'team' and such. It would be beneficial if we forget about the various 'tag teams' as that seems to change as often as Vince remembers to poop Heel or Face Christian

Sheamus - if you've seen him then you know the guy is good. Maybe a little rough around the edges, but he's good and a true superstar in the making. I suppose that and his connection with HHH is what got him to RAW. A program against Sheamus win or lose would do nothing but benefit both these guys.

Our opponents make a strong case for Jericho vs Christian. I argue that that program can happy anywhere. They say that Jericho and Show are splitting and that Jericho will stay on SD and Show on RAW. I say that things change in a hearbeat around the WWE. I say as of right now Jericho is on all programs, in fact he was cleanly pinned by Christian on an episode of ECW. That in itself implies that he's gotten the green light to move on to bigger and better things. It ended cleanly, which seems to signal that they're making him out to be 'better' than Jericho. Going with that supposition, then a program with Jericho may not even happen.

Batista is another guy that would have to be carried. What good would it do Christian to be squashed since Batista is obviously being pushed as a real 'monster' heel?

Undertaker is slowing down. He showed in his match with Punk that he's slowing down. Don't/Can't see classic programs with Undertaker.

Punk. He's got technical skills and such, but he's overrated. He's another case of too much too soon.

Then you have Ziggler and Morrison. Ziggler is being compared to guys like Mr. Perfect, yet he's not quite ready for that comparison to be honest.

Morrison. I can't really be objective with him, other than to say he made a good sidekick for Miz - the two of them together were AWEsome.

Basically, anyone on RAW has 'proven' themselves enough that they're on the big program. There's a whole LOT going on there and sometimes it's hard to keep track of, but the fact is they're on the A show - the 'best' show to be on, where the most exposure is gotten.

Turning this around a bit, and while it may seem contradictory. I don't believe he will ever hold the WHC or the WWE Title. Even a midcard title is better than nothing. HOWEVER, it should be noted that Hogan and Flair got THEIR rewards on RAW. That is where the fanbase turned everything on Vince and he was basically not given a choice as to how to handle the situation. More can be said as that being the reason Cena gets to be Super Cena: he sells the hell out of some merchandise. (speaking of merchandising: the live show I went to I saw a heck of a lot of Christian T shirts in the crowd - bought a couple myself for the boys)

Anyway, our opponents continue to use the phrase 'more easily' as it refers to Christian changing Vinces mind by being on SD. I say, it appears that he has already changed his mind if he is in fact moving Christian from ECW. Christian had to prove himself, not only with his ring performance/mic skills, etc. but also in terms of merchandising - after all, bottom line with any corporation is in dollars and cents. "Why fix it if aint' broke?" doesn't fit in this situation, it's "capitalize on a good thing while it's hot" - that's the business world in a nutshell.

As I stated above, Vince could easily argue with any mark that Christian has held a 'World' title, because after all it is the ECW title. While there are those of us who know better - it's the marks he's catering to. They're the ones buying the tickets and sitting in the seats at all of his shows and buying up the merchandise (well, not ALL people doing that are marks - but I think you get the picture).

Being on RAW is where the "A listers" are. That is where Christian benefits the most, high profile programs whether it's main event or not with anyone on RAW, trumps anything SD has to offer. RAW is where the most is happening, crowded or not. Being on RAW is where it's at.

[The MVP]

- Christian has over the course of the last 10 years established himself as a main event wrestler

Agreed, all he needs to do now is show Vince this. On SD it's much more likely and therefore much more beneficial for him.

- Christian is easily (as my partner said) in the top 5 of all of WWE

Sure he probably is in the top 5. Every top superstar doesn't need to be on one brand, though.. in fact two of WWE's top superstars are on SD both on paper and talent-wise (Edge and Jericho). Also, he's not at a top 5 level based on his position on the card yet. On Smackdown, he can be, though. On Raw he'd be stuck around too many midcarders OR he'd be making a huge jump by being put against the very top guys on paper on the mainstream show, which Vince simply wouldn't do if he doesn't trust him to do that yet.

- Vince has a history of treating returning 'superstars' in a certain "that's what you get" kinda way and refusing to allow them to truly succeed and cash in on either the WHC or WWE title. The exceptions have been Hogan, Flair, and Slaughter. Of course it fit into his plans to do just that with them and so he did what was best for the moment. The remainder of the examples were given 'crap', basically. They were allowed to work a few programs and to stay in the lower and midcards - rarely ever main eventing. Backlund comes to mind as one of those that fit into the category of getting 'crap'. He was arguably the best all around wrestler (and I mean legitimate wrestler), with Kurt Angle coming in a very close second, to ever be in the WWE/F. What he got was a title run that lasted all of about a week (or less) and was squashed by Diesel.

OK, showing why he'd be better off on SD. On Raw, Vince has plenty of midcarders and top faces that he can push. Christian is a returning superstar who he has never seen as a true main eventer. On SD, Christian can be a very good fit, pretty much needed, so Christian WILL be given his chance there. Vince can be selfish but he's not stupid. On Raw it just wouldn't be worth it and is too crowded but on SD Christian can be given that chance easily and it could really work out. If it does and Christian brings in ratings and sells merchandise, Vince will push him where he's needed, and that could definitely be the SD main event.

Gone are the days when Vince could introduce a guy from another company who had been in WWE/F before as though they are 'brand new'. Barry Windham comes to mind. He was with Rotunda in a tag team who were very much over. He left, then came back to WWE as 'the Widowmaker' - all painted face and such. Vince was at the announce table and he said and I quote "We don't know much about this Widowmaker....." It wasn't until Vince saw a possibility with JBL that he allowed Windham to come out from under the makeup. He still didn't get anything out of it: title wise. Now Vince can't deny Christians history in TNA and his previous history in WWE. He can however, keep him in a lower status and successfully argue that Christian didn't get the shaft because after all he was the ECW Champ.

OK, even if this does turn out as being true, that just makes more sense to put him on SD. If Christian is at a low level on Raw and a guy that Vince is not happy with/doesn't see talent in, then he would likely get lost in the shuffle of the huge/crowded Raw midcard scene.

By virtue of the fact (apparently) that Christian will be moving off of the ECW brand says that he has 'proven' himself to Vince. Otherwise I'd HAVE to believe that Christian is still serving out his sentence in purgatory (ECW). He's done one heck of a job there and it certainly appears that Vince is going to smile down on him at long last.

Simply because he'd be getting off of ECW doesn't mean he'd be proving himself to Vince yet. There's plenty of guys that Vince move from ECW to Raw or SD, sometimes before they're actually ready... he doesn't always move these guys to another brand after they've proven themselves to him.. it's usually before they've really proven much. Ricky Ortiz is probably one of the better examples of that.

But notice that he let him succeed on the C brand... if put on the B brand that isn't so mainstream and where Christian is much more needed, then Vince will once again let him succeed and see if Christian can be the main eventer he probably still doesn't believe he is.

I'm not implying that he would have classic matches against Super Cena: bah gawd, the fact that there are guys already carrying him the way they do is purely shameful. It takes real talent to carry someone like that and to continue to make him look good. Heel Christian would be a good matchup.

Alright, let's compare John Cena to Batista then. Both guys can't really work a good match, let alone a classic one. BUT Batista will be the more entertaining of the two right now. Cena is stale while Batista has just gotten his exciting heel turn. Christian can carry him in the matches and with Christian's help and Batista's new character they can have some good segments as well. A much better feud. Face Christian.

Then there's HHH. Christian would put on an excellent program with HHH. As much politicking as HHH does and with his stroke, he has recently shown (via Sheamus) that he is willing to help someone out. Heel or Face Christian

Compare Triple H to Undertaker. Undertaker is just as willing, probably more willing to help someone out as he's usually the guy that helps out the younger guys and tries to be fair with them. He's the guy the younger/midcard guys go to with their problems with HHH or in general. Not to mention Undertaker is a big deal in the WWE. Each feud could be huge when it involves him and with Christian as a heel and Undertaker as the loved legend face, this would be a classic program between the two. Heel Christian.

HBK. HBK has everything that Jericho has (ringskill/talent/mic skill). HBK would be an awesome match to see vs Christian. And to end any disagreement on this: Jericho's big turn came along with a program with HBK. HBK had to endure a lot and sacrifice a lot for that to happen. Face Christian

Jericho is so much better of an opponent for Christian. It's not even close. HBK is old and waaaay past his prime while Chris Jericho is still around his prime. Jericho isn't showing any signs of really slowing down in the ring.. he can still put on really classic matches. On the other hand, HBK's body seems to be falling apart. And as far as mic skill and overall talent goes, Chris Jericho is currently better there as well. Both can have classic segments but overall a feud with Jericho would do so much more for Christian. Not to mention they have much more history to make the feud even better. Face Christian.

Orton. For all of his out-of-ring shenanigans it's been said as of the last year that Orton is more of a locker room leader type. Easily the top heel in the company or atleast tied with Jericho. It's really not his fault the booking goes the way it goes when it comes to SuperCena. Face Christian

Edge > Orton. The only way he probably wouldn't be is if you look at the level on the card they are at and that's only based on the way WWE pushes these guys. Even in that aspect, though, Edge had previously been a top heel on SD for a very long time, many months at a time. Edge can also put on a much better match than the boring, generic wrestling that Orton has. Orton is also very stale right now while Edge will be fresh as ever coming back from his injury. Not to mention Christian/Edge on a main event level is just a feud that has been waiting to happen. Could easily be a feud of the year when it happens. So much history there, so much talent. It would have to change Vince's mind, just from this one feud. Heel or face Christian.

Then you've got guys like MVP and Mark Henry. Stars on the rise. He doesn't need to beat MVP a program with MVP would be mutually beneficial. I understand that he's involved with MH and they're a 'team' and such. It would be beneficial if we forget about the various 'tag teams' as that seems to change as often as Vince remembers to poop Heel or Face Christian

On Smackdown there's guys like Morrison, CM Punk, and more of a veteran in Rey Mysterio. These can be great feuds as well.

Sheamus - if you've seen him then you know the guy is good. Maybe a little rough around the edges, but he's good and a true superstar in the making. I suppose that and his connection with HHH is what got him to RAW. A program against Sheamus win or lose would do nothing but benefit both these guys.

Dolph Ziggler.

On Raw there's also a bunch of other midcarders that they're looking to push, too so with Vince's dislike towards Christian it's going to be tough for him right from the beginning. It's too crowded. On Smackdown, it's more empty and he can get around the few midcarders on the rise for a much better fit.

Our opponents make a strong case for Jericho vs Christian. I argue that that program can happy anywhere. They say that Jericho and Show are splitting and that Jericho will stay on SD and Show on RAW. I say that things change in a hearbeat around the WWE. I say as of right now Jericho is on all programs, in fact he was cleanly pinned by Christian on an episode of ECW. That in itself implies that he's gotten the green light to move on to bigger and better things. It ended cleanly, which seems to signal that they're making him out to be 'better' than Jericho. Going with that supposition, then a program with Jericho may not even happen.

One match doesn't mean anything... it can just further their history before an actual feud and storyline actually happens.

And how many times does this need to be said... Jericho and Show are the unified tag team champions... they can go to every brand but Jericho is still on SD and Show still on Raw. Notice that Carlito and Primo were on every brand when they were the champs.. it's what you do as the unified tag team champs. Once that's done, he's going to need to stay on the brand he's on and that's SD. Unless there's some kind of draft switching him over which in that case, any superstar can be moved to another brand. The point is invalid.

Batista is another guy that would have to be carried. What good would it do Christian to be squashed since Batista is obviously being pushed as a real 'monster' heel?

Yet you mention Cena where this whole thing fits Super Cena perfectly.

Undertaker is slowing down. He showed in his match with Punk that he's slowing down. Don't/Can't see classic programs with Undertaker.

Yet you mention Shawn Michaels... that fits HBK much more than it does Undertaker.

Not to mention that Undertaker's feuds almost always include that nostalgia-like feeling. He's that kind of feared legend.. his feuds are normally huge and when put with a talented superstar such as Christian, it can likely turn out to be classic.

Punk. He's got technical skills and such, but he's overrated. He's another case of too much too soon.

Then you have Ziggler and Morrison. Ziggler is being compared to guys like Mr. Perfect, yet he's not quite ready for that comparison to be honest.

Morrison. I can't really be objective with him, other than to say he made a good sidekick for Miz - the two of them together were AWEsome.

These are still quality midcarders and on SD, it's not going to mean much because Christian won't have to be in the midcard for very long. Just a few feuds and these are good superstars to feud with.

On Raw, there's so many midcarders and yes, they're talented... that's only bad for Christian because 1) he really shouldn't be having too many midcard feuds so what does it really matter and 2) with so many talented midcarders around him, it's going to just hurt his chances of Vince pushing him when Vince doesn't see his skill yet and has so many others to push anyway.

Basically, anyone on RAW has 'proven' themselves enough that they're on the big program. There's a whole LOT going on there and sometimes it's hard to keep track of, but the fact is they're on the A show - the 'best' show to be on, where the most exposure is gotten.

Exactly... crowded/a lot to keep track of/tons of talented Raw superstars waiting to get pushed.... all of this could easily lead to Christian not getting the push he deserves. His chances become much more limited while on SD the brand is basically waiting for him and there aren't too many obstacles for him. He just needs to do one thing: showcase his talent and prove himself to Vince.. he'll easily get that chance to show it.

Turning this around a bit, and while it may seem contradictory. I don't believe he will ever hold the WHC or the WWE Title. Even a midcard title is better than nothing. HOWEVER, it should be noted that Hogan and Flair got THEIR rewards on RAW. That is where the fanbase turned everything on Vince and he was basically not given a choice as to how to handle the situation. More can be said as that being the reason Cena gets to be Super Cena: he sells the hell out of some merchandise. (speaking of merchandising: the live show I went to I saw a heck of a lot of Christian T shirts in the crowd - bought a couple myself for the boys)

Basically what I've already said many times and yes this is very contradictory now saying that Christian won't win a World title. He can do just as much on SD, have just as many classic feuds (likely more, as I've shown), but the main thing is that he'll easily fit in at a high spot on SD. No other distractions from him.. he just needs to show what he's got and then he WILL win the WHC eventually. Saying he won't win the WWE title now kinda kills your argument of him being better off on Raw.

Anyway, our opponents continue to use the phrase 'more easily' as it refers to Christian changing Vinces mind by being on SD. I say, it appears that he has already changed his mind if he is in fact moving Christian from ECW. Christian had to prove himself, not only with his ring performance/mic skills, etc. but also in terms of merchandising - after all, bottom line with any corporation is in dollars and cents. "Why fix it if aint' broke?" doesn't fit in this situation, it's "capitalize on a good thing while it's hot" - that's the business world in a nutshell.

Smackdown is being underrated as if it's another ECW. Smackdown is almost as big as Raw, it has talented performers, superstars there can still sell lots of merchandise.. it's just not so mainstream and is in need of another top superstar.... both of those are great for Christian because that is what he can bring.

Vince let Christian shine on ECW as the top face because it isn't as widely known/mainstream as the other shows. It's not much of a risk. Vince is probably already starting to change his mind and the safe option (and the much more beneficial option for him as well) is to put Christian on SD. That's where Christian will get his shot and where he will therefore easily get pushed after proving himself to Vince.

Being on RAW is where the "A listers" are. That is where Christian benefits the most, high profile programs whether it's main event or not with anyone on RAW, trumps anything SD has to offer. RAW is where the most is happening, crowded or not. Being on RAW is where it's at.

For Christian that's not a very good thing when Vince doesn't yet see him as a main brand main eventer and "given the history" he simply will not be pushed on that crowded brand. Once again, SD is also being underrated here.. it's still the second brand and has some great feuds going on... many consider it the "better" brand as far as actual quality goes. Less crowded, not so mainstream, not as much of a risk for Vince, superstars with history with Christian, etc. is all very good for Christian. He will benefit more from the Smackdown brand.

[Masked Superstar]

We've stated our case as to why moving to RAW would be more beneficial for Christian. I could go back and highlight and 'quote' but I'm not.

Simply put once again:

- RAW is the top brand. (Not just from a mark perspective)

- Christian is a top star.

- Both brands have their top faces and heels.

- Christian fits either face or heel

- Christian may be ending his term in Vince 'purgatory' for his past 'offenses'; maybe not

In the world of sports entertainment, the way to get noticed, and I mean really noticed is to be on the 'top' show (RAW). The exposure is where it's at. In the entertainment world, any publicity is good publicity.: beneficial.

Whether he ever gets to hold the WHC or WWE Title is irrelevant, because it'll most likely never happen. Of the two mid-card titles, the only one he hasn't held is the US Title: yes, that's a minor benefit, but it is a benefit for Christian

Our opponents would have us believe that Christian needs to prove himself to Vince. Well, I say, again, that he's done so, if that's even possible, by virtue of him being moved from ECW.

Will he EVER get to hold the WHC or WWE Title? I pointed this out before, but it was apparently glossed over: Both Flair and Hogan were on RAW when they got their respective opportunities. I don't know what was on Vinces mind to do with say Hogan for example (NWO angle, remember?) But it was the fanbase that forced Vinces hand on that issue. He was able to satisfy his fanbase by giving Hogan a run with the strap, despite it not lasting long.(Even with that, Hogan didn't last for long, anyone remember how Hogan was 'unmasked' and fired?) In this case with Christian he could easily cite having Christian hold the ECW strap as proving that he's not against Christian, thereby 'silencing the critics': putting him on RAW may do the same thing for Christian that it did for Hogan and Flair: maybe not, but it's a chance. A chance is all a guy needs.

Taking him and putting him somewhere other than ECW would be good.

Putting Christian on SD would be good, putting Christian on RAW would be better. Therefore the RAW choice is the most beneficial for Christian.

[Cutting Edge Head]

We've stated our case as to why moving to RAW would be more beneficial for Christian. I could go back and highlight and 'quote' but I'm not.

Because you know we've already put detailed counters against all of your points?

- RAW is the top brand. (Not just from a mark perspective)

And, as we've said, Vince isn't going hand over the reins of the show to someone just coming off of ECW. Christian would be doomed on Raw if he headed there right now.

- Christian is a top star.

Then why do you continue to deny that he'll become a main eventer or world champion? I guess that's because he wouldn't be if he were to head to Raw right now. If Christian was moved to Raw right now, he would have a hell of a hard time being placed on the part of the card where "top stars" belong. That wouldn't be the case with Smackdown.

- Both brands have their top faces and heels.

Actually, Smackdown doesn't have quite as many top faces and heels as Raw does. Smackdown has a void where Christian can flourish.

Even if that point was true, it doesn't help your side or hurt our side.

- Christian fits either face or heel

- Christian may be ending his term in Vince 'purgatory' for his past 'offenses'; maybe not

I'm not even going to address these point because they don't help or hurt either side.

In the world of sports entertainment, the way to get noticed, and I mean really noticed is to be on the 'top' show (RAW). The exposure is where it's at. In the entertainment world, any publicity is good publicity.: beneficial.

Christian would get so much better "publicity" on Smackdown. It doesn't matter what show a superstar is on; it matters where on the card they are. On Raw, he would inevitably be lower on the card than if he was on Smackdown. That "any publicity is good publicity" quote isn't relevant here. We're talking about where a guy stands against a whole lot of other people. If Christian were to have months of meaningless programs with midcarders, then you can't honestly say that's good for him. And you say that being on the top show is the only way to get noticed and is only full of positives. However, guys like Primo, Chavo Guerrero, and Jamie Noble are on Raw. Would you describe them as being noticeable?

Whether he ever gets to hold the WHC or WWE Title is irrelevant, because it'll most likely never happen. Of the two mid-card titles, the only one he hasn't held is the US Title: yes, that's a minor benefit, but it is a benefit for Christian

You think that he will most likely never get to hold a world title. However, earlier you suggested feuds with John Cena, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, and Randy Orton. How could Christian remain relevant enough to have feuds with any or all of these men without eventually getting into the title picture? If, in your words, he's not likely to move up, then there would be no point in having feuds with these main eventers.

Regarding the United States Title - It's of no benefit whatsoever. If Christian were to win it, it would be detrimental to his career and progression. I can't fathom why you would give him a nearly guaranteed shot at a US Title run (moving to Raw) over a very likely shot at the World Heavyweight Championship (moving to Smackdown).

Our opponents would have us believe that Christian needs to prove himself to Vince. Well, I say, again, that he's done so, if that's even possible, by virtue of him being moved from ECW.

You completely ignored the point MVP made about ECW stars moving to different brands all the time. It isn't always a push (MVP specifically used Ricky Ortiz as an example). It's usually just to give them fresh matches/feuds and to give both brands (ECW and the brand the guy moved to) something new.

Will he EVER get to hold the WHC or WWE Title? I pointed this out before, but it was apparently glossed over: Both Flair and Hogan were on RAW when they got their respective opportunities. I don't know what was on Vinces mind to do with say Hogan for example (NWO angle, remember?) But it was the fanbase that forced Vinces hand on that issue. He was able to satisfy his fanbase by giving Hogan a run with the strap, despite it not lasting long.(Even with that, Hogan didn't last for long, anyone remember how Hogan was 'unmasked' and fired?) In this case with Christian he could easily cite having Christian hold the ECW strap as proving that he's not against Christian, thereby 'silencing the critics': putting him on RAW may do the same thing for Christian that it did for Hogan and Flair: maybe not, but it's a chance. A chance is all a guy needs.

We already refuted this point, as quoted below:

Originally Posted by The MVP

For Christian that's not a very good thing when Vince doesn't yet see him as a main brand main eventer and "given the history" he simply will not be pushed on that crowded brand. Once again, SD is also being underrated here.. it's still the second brand and has some great feuds going on... many consider it the "better" brand as far as actual quality goes. Less crowded, not so mainstream, not as much of a risk for Vince, superstars with history with Christian, etc. is all very good for Christian. He will benefit more from the Smackdown brand.

If "all Christian needs" is a chance, then his odds of progressing further up the card are increased by moving to Smackdown. If Vince takes a chance on him on Smackdown, Vince isn't risking so much, and Christian doesn't have as much competition to out-shine.

Taking him and putting him somewhere other than ECW would be good.

Putting Christian on SD would be good, putting Christian on RAW would be better. Therefore the RAW choice is the most beneficial for Christian.

You still haven't put up substantial reasons as to why a move to Raw would be more beneficial. Simply stating, "Raw would be better," without backing it up doesn't help you.

[Cutting Edge Head]

Closing Statement

Moving to Smackdown would be much more beneficial to Christian than moving to Raw. We've described the many reasons why, as well as why moving to Raw would be more of a harmful move. A few of our strong points include:

• Smackdown's roster has room for another big talent
• Raw's roster is filled up with guys in and above Christian's current position
• Smackdown has better and more realistic program/feud options
• Having Christian move up Smackdown's card is much easier and less risky

Our opponents continue to contradict themselves and each other. They say that "Christian can easily be moved into the Raw main event" and cite examples of good feuds, then turn around and say he'll probably never win the world title and say he should be given a run with the US Title. They also say that Vince McMahon is going against him, but believe that Christian can be given feuds with Raw's best.

At this point in time, moving to Raw would slow Christian's progress, if not halt it. It's easy for any educated wrestling fan to see that Christian would benefit so much more from Smackdown. Smackdown needs Christian. Christian needs Smackdown.

[Masked Superstar]

Originally Posted by Cutting Edge Head

Then why do you continue to deny that he'll become a main eventer or world champion?

On the contrary I've insisted that he is already a main eventer. Main eventer doesn't always equal world champion: you and your partner have already stated such.

Originally Posted by Cutting Edge Head

Christian would get so much better "publicity" on Smackdown. It doesn't matter what show a superstar is on; it matters where on the card they are. On Raw, he would inevitably be lower on the card than if he was on Smackdown. That "any publicity is good publicity" quote isn't relevant here.

If he is going to 'prove himself to Vince' as you and/or your partner suggest he'll need the 'publicity'.

Originally Posted by Cutting Edge Head

We're talking about where a guy stands against a whole lot of other people. If Christian were to have months of meaningless programs with midcarders, then you can't honestly say that's good for him. And you say that being on the top show is the only way to get noticed and is only full of positives. However, guys like Primo, Chavo Guerrero, and Jamie Noble are on Raw. Would you describe them as being noticeable?

If Primo and Jamie Noble were of the same caliber I'd address that, but they're not. Chavo? It wasn't that long ago that he was on the ECW brand.... He's not being well utilized but I'm sure there's a lot more to that story than meets the eye.

Originally Posted by Cutting Edge Head

You think that he will most likely never get to hold a world title. However, earlier you suggested feuds with John Cena, Triple H, Shawn Michaels, and Randy Orton. How could Christian remain relevant enough to have feuds with any or all of these men without eventually getting into the title picture? If, in your words, he's not likely to move up, then there would be no point in having feuds with these main eventers.

He doesn't even have to win the world title. Orton, for example, has lost the title: is he moved down the card or is he being put into a worthwhile program? He's not "in" the "title hunt" for now.

Originally Posted by Cutting Edge Head

You completely ignored the point MVP made about ECW stars moving to different brands all the time. It isn't always a push (MVP specifically used Ricky Ortiz as an example). It's usually just to give them fresh matches/feuds and to give both brands (ECW and the brand the guy moved to) something new.

It sure is, and I don't suppose Vince has any say in that either. Regardless, look at the history of how Vince treats guys in Christians situation. It's well documented.

You've completely overlooked the Flair and Hogan examples. They both did it on RAW. I'm not saying Christian is at their respective levels. I'm saying that's where he has a better chance because of fanbase and such.

Originally Posted by Cutting Edge Head

If "all Christian needs" is a chance, then his odds of progressing further up the card are increased by moving to Smackdown. If Vince takes a chance on him on Smackdown, Vince isn't risking so much, and Christian doesn't have as much competition to out-shine.

And how does that benefit Christian.. as you say, taking the 'easy' route? Your team has represented that he needs to prove himself, and even stated that he said that he wants to prove himself. How does going to the 'easy' brand equate to proving himself? How would that be beneficial? Is it because the quality of performer is less on SD as I've suggested?

As a closing statement I will end with this:

RAW is the 'top' brand (not just for mark reasons). It is where the top guys are at. SD, with the exception of, Rey, Undertaker, Edge, and Jericho - the remainder remain at a level two - three steps below Christian. On SD he would be relegated to carrying the majority of his programs. Those are guys who have yet to be considered credible.

RAW is the program tended to more carefully than SD by Vince.

On RAW he would be put into programs with the top names in WWE. RAW's midcard is a sight better than SD's midcard. The main event scene has well established performers.

I've already discussed the probabilities and possibilities for programs on RAW.

Being on RAW is the program that every up and comer aspires to be on.

What benefits either program gain from Christian being on the program is irrelevant.

Our opponents say that they have given substantial reasoning for placing Christian on SD. I say they have given substantial reasoning for placing Christian on SD for the betterment of SD.

This has never been about what is better for the respective programs. This is about what show would benefit Christian.

For the reasons my partner and I have stated ad nauseum: RAW is the program that Christian would get the most benefit from.